When Dez Brown walked away from a life marked by violence and racial tension, he didn't just turn a page, he rewrote his entire book. As a beacon of hope in faith-based community initiatives and youth mentorship, Dez joins us to share his remarkable journey of redemption and the lessons on leadership and social justice he's learned along the way. His story isn't just his own—it's a mirror reflecting the transformative power of faith and the impact it can have on our role in society. Through engaging dialogue, Dez unravels how belief systems shape our engagement with the world and the critical importance of self-awareness in leadership.
Navigating through the waters of social entrepreneurship, Dez and I discuss the delicate dance of balancing the drive for societal change with personal well-being. We dissect the complexities of systemic biases and the need for representation, shining a light on the accountability required in practices such as stop and search. But it's not all about the outer work; the inner journey is just as crucial. From the significance of therapy to the art of self-care, the conversation turns inward, emphasizing the importance of emotional health for those spearheading change, fighting for justice, and leading teams toward collective success.
Our conversation culminates in a reflection on the importance of recognizing and harnessing one's talents to achieve professional and personal milestones. Dez's multifaceted roles, from social enterprise to ministry and beyond, serve as a testament to his philosophy of playing to one's strengths. As we eagerly anticipate the next episode with the British Black Tribunal, I extend an open invitation to Black entrepreneurs from the Afro-Caribbean UK community to come forward and enrich our narrative with their experiences. Dez's story reinforces the message that no matter where you start, with purpose and self-understanding, you can shape not only your future but also the fabric of the communities you touch.
Check out Spark 2 Life
When Dez Brown walked away from a life marked by violence and racial tension, he didn't just turn a page, he rewrote his entire book. As a beacon of hope in faith-based community initiatives and youth mentorship, Dez joins us to share his remarkable journey of redemption and the lessons on leadership and social justice he's learned along the way. His story isn't just his own—it's a mirror reflecting the transformative power of faith and the impact it can have on our role in society. Through engaging dialogue, Dez unravels how belief systems shape our engagement with the world and the critical importance of self-awareness in leadership.
Navigating through the waters of social entrepreneurship, Dez and I discuss the delicate dance of balancing the drive for societal change with personal well-being. We dissect the complexities of systemic biases and the need for representation, shining a light on the accountability required in practices such as stop and search. But it's not all about the outer work; the inner journey is just as crucial. From the significance of therapy to the art of self-care, the conversation turns inward, emphasizing the importance of emotional health for those spearheading change, fighting for justice, and leading teams toward collective success.
Our conversation culminates in a reflection on the importance of recognizing and harnessing one's talents to achieve professional and personal milestones. Dez's multifaceted roles, from social enterprise to ministry and beyond, serve as a testament to his philosophy of playing to one's strengths. As we eagerly anticipate the next episode with the British Black Tribunal, I extend an open invitation to Black entrepreneurs from the Afro-Caribbean UK community to come forward and enrich our narrative with their experiences. Dez's story reinforces the message that no matter where you start, with purpose and self-understanding, you can shape not only your future but also the fabric of the communities you touch.
Check out Spark 2 Life
Welcome to Daddy's podcast. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to the British Black entrepreneur. This podcast exists to promote black businesses in the UK, To educate black entrepreneurs on all things business and to inspire you on your entrepreneurial journey. Here is your host, Jason Lezos.
Speaker 2:Alright, you were just listening to my daughter. Her name is Nala and she really wanted to do today's introduction to the podcast, so I thought let me give her a chance to do that. So, without further ado, I'm just going to give you a few little pointers. My guest's name is Dez Brown. Dez is the founder and CEO of a spark to life, an award winning faith based not faith bias charity, working with medium to high risk young people and adults. This is written in autobiography. Convicted or condemned, he's a qualified therapist, trains professionals on trauma awareness, served as a prison therapist and a session or prison chaplain. Excuse all the noise in the background, but my children are playing and this is just a reality of life sometimes. So, without further ado, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I want to thank Nala, my daughter, for doing a terrific job of introducing the show. Do you want to say something else, nala, before we listen to Dez? What would you like to say, just really quickly on?
Speaker 1:I hope you'll enjoy it.
Speaker 2:She hopes you enjoy the episode. I'm sure that you will. Without further ado, here we is. It's Dez Brown.
Speaker 3:The leadership guru, and I suppose we all have experiences that shape the way we see life. Being a trained therapist I might talk about a little bit later on. There's a concept in therapy called phenomenology. A phenomenology is we all have our own phenomenology is based on our experiences that shape our consciousness, our awareness to the world and how we engage the world. And so when I talk about worldview I suppose what I'm saying for all the listeners is the world isn't the way it is, it's the way we see it. And we all have a phenomenology which is based on our experiences that shape our consciousness.
Speaker 3:And so for me growing up in Barking and Dagenham in the 70s which was quite a racialized area in as much as it was quite unique to see a for me anyway a white mum, black dad being married, bringing up mixed heritage boys at that time, so experience a level of racism from a young age. But my parents really instilled in us a sense of identity. But because you're kind of in albeit then it was out to London. Now it's more class as London, barking and Dagenham, but we kind of got a few altercations, got a few fights and kind of learned to stand up for oneself and it kind of again shapes, I suppose, how I saw myself from an altercation point of view I don't want to kind of throw the term out kind of toxic masculinity too early but that whole sense of being a male and thinking to be a male. You need to be strong, you need to be able to stand up for yourself, you need to be able to back yourself. So there's lots of intersections in regards to race, identity area. You know, masculinity, albeit I was a boy coming into a man and then from my early teenage years, got involved in, I would say, levels of antisocial behavior, and a lot of it wasn't because of parenting my parents were great parents. I think it was choices that I made, and the choices that I made was very much about, when I look back at, my personality and the kind of person that I was kind of a bit of a thrill seeker, wanted to be engaged and engage life experientially, which meant that I made decisions that gave me experiences that it weren't always positive and so my energies wasn't necessarily channeled in the right way and sadly, as I began to get into my mid to late teens, got involved in criminal levels of drug taking and sadly ended up taking somebody's life through a violent crime and extreme, as it sounds from where I've just talked up until now.
Speaker 3:But you asked the question, jason, about worldview and what shapes it. All those things, as in one's experiences, begin to shape one's worldview good, bad and indifferent and that's definitely something that has shaped my worldview and caused me to start a journey. I suppose, on self reflection, you know where does my moral compass lie and what led me into real transformation and change. That again reinforced, I would say, a different worldview. It kind of superseded it was faith.
Speaker 3:I became a Christian in my late teens, which was a culmination being on remand, my then girlfriend, who's now my wife, come to visit me telling me about Christianity, first not being interested, coming out on bail, coming aware of what the Christian message was. That then was something I responded to and that just shifted my whole moral compass and my whole value system is in that shift. That again, it just set a different worldview now that is, I think, prefixed and framed by Christianity. So you know, that again determines to me what is right and wrong, how I live and my values, because I think our belief determines our values and our values determine our behavior, which really underpins a lot of what I do now in regards to the work that I do, which I'm sure at some point we'll talk about later so what might seem as a long answer to your question? Jason, there's been a lot of things that have happened in my world that has really shaped my worldview significantly, as I've just shared.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, no great response. Thank you for sharing that, being open and honest, with my audience. I think it's really good to know a bit about you and kind of that journey. So yeah, no phenomenal. Now, as a cultural architect, how do you define and approach social justice in your work and life?
Speaker 3:Yeah, again these terms, you know. Cultural architect for me, just for the audience, I suppose culture for me is the way that people think, the way that people behave. So we all live in a culture. There may be subcultures that we're a part of, and they use a term sometimes like kind of gang culture. Well, it's a subculture of what one would say normalize society, if I could use that term, and each society has different cultures within it and subcultures. So when we talk about cultural architect, I suppose I'm looking at the prevailing culture of the day, which is quite Eurocentric in its approach.
Speaker 3:I think when I look at things like justice, whether it be social justice, criminal justice, racial justice, I begin to say, ok, well, is there justice in these spaces, or is there areas of disproportionality, is there areas of injustice?
Speaker 3:For argument's sake and I suppose, with my worldview my worldview is one that definitely stands for justice and where I feel there's levels of injustice, I find myself, through whether it be invitation or through the work that I do, having platforms to speak into that, to challenge that.
Speaker 3:And that's where the architectural aspect of the term being a culture architect kicks in, because, you know, architect is someone that draws something, and I'm sure they do more than that, but just simply speaking from an architectural point of view, they have a picture in their mind. I don't be a disingenuous 20 architects out there, I'm sure they do more than that, but they have a picture in them and you know, they begin to Draw that picture with it's necessary and right measurements etc. And so when I look at society, look at life, and I use the term cultural architect, it's like, okay, how can we shift things that may not look right, that may need reshaping from a social justice point of view, or a racial justice point of view or criminal justice point of view? Because, you know, the key word in all of that for me is justice. And is it just, is it fair? And I believe that part of my mandate, location in society, in life, is to, where possible, bring a level of justice.
Speaker 2:Now just wanna touch and kind of move on to leadership now, when we know that's quite a crucial aspect of anyone's personal professional growth. How do you focus on developing the leader within yourself and maybe what strategies do you use or employ to develop some of the leaders Around you?
Speaker 3:yeah. So I think developing the leader within myself again I'm giving specific shout out, but there's nothing you under the sun there's a good book by, actually, john C max will call developing the leader within you. It's a bit of a strap line that I've embraced and embodied because I believe in the concept you can't take someone where you yourself have been. Hence, you know, if I'm gonna leave people, can I leave myself first and foremost, and the emphasis on developing the leader within you. And so I think you know, for me it's about and sometimes I use the word disciplines. But one thing I would Kavya that way is that we need to arrive, learn that one needs to understand their personality type and what works for them. When we start talking about disciplines and we start talking about habits that healthy habits that is because people are wide in different ways. Some people engage when it comes to leadership or even just their learning styles important but they engage in leadership in different ways. Some people benefit from being mentored, as in one to one, coach, leadership development, etc. Other people great read books. You know we've got things like now podcasts, audio books etc. So we gotta see where we kind of fit or our best shape when we start talking about personal development and our only to ship development, suggest just taking that to account. But for me it will definitely be through more study in the reading, and I say that because I think I'm not somebody that will necessarily read a book cover to cover per se. But what I would do is look at the key points in the book without taking out of context let me just clarify that and what I would do is get the guts out of the book of the point that they're really talking about. We did the book think.
Speaker 3:A lot of it also is around looking at leaders that either I've had relationships with or even leaders that are from a distance, that I've watched. And I look at the types of leaders. So do they lead from the front again quite simplistic approach to the lead from the middle, as in empowering people, bringing people around them, or do they leave from the back like a napkin, sometimes represent kind of different temperaments or personalities that we are not everyone, who's, you know, like myself, we could be quite confident and extra per se Would you say that's it. Because you're of that temperament and of that that type, you're a leader. I think you can get very you know what a better term. People that are quite reflective step back, but they influence in different ways and they lead in different ways.
Speaker 3:But it's about personal development internally and a lot of that for me, you know, comes through my faith, is quite central to that finding that grounding. Again, just being clear, my values, why I do what I do? Because I think that's important when we start talking about developing people around us. You know, do I do it because it meets my needs? Is there a co dependency there? Or do I do it because I want to see the best people that I want to see people achieve? I want to see people do well and I think that's important because, you know, we will have drivers and for me, I think I love people, I appreciate people and I want to see the best in people.
Speaker 3:So when I look at my own personal development and having been in situations where I've had to lead, and looking at that development and leading within me, getting feedback about my whether it's communication, whether it's you know how people feel in the way that I do lead them. So being open to constructive criticism, looking at individual strengths and weaknesses and leadership, and learn a lot through people in positions of leadership that maybe haven't led as well as maybe they could have or as well as one may have desired. But we can learn a lot from people's failures as well as we can learn from people's successes. And you know, leadership isn't necessarily Position based. I think sometimes, when we think of leadership, we lead out of position, which is a title. I think we've got to understand that. For me, when we're dealing with people, it's about leading out of permission. So we got to earn the right to lead. Therefore, relationship is central for me anyway, when it comes to leadership and it comes to leading people.
Speaker 3:You know, there's a saying that If we say we're a leader and we're going somewhere, we look behind. No one's there, we just taking a walk. You know, the truth is, if people are following us, then we're leading. So we all influence. And it's how we influence. What kind of energy do we bring into a space? The people listen to us and all of that.
Speaker 3:Again, I think personally, if I was to give one of the key nuggets to leadership for me, because it is centralized around people is people catch. You know who you are more than what you say. People care more about not what you know, but they actually care about. Do you care about that? Are you interested in that? And I think if people are central to leadership, that I think I make that my focus when I look at influencing people, and so some of that's one to one. If people want coaching or developing and it's a skill set or a specialism that I'm acquainted with or aware of, then I'll give them time, I'll work with them and build that basis again to give constructive and healthy feedback.
Speaker 3:I think one of my strengths is and I think when we come to leadership, it's looking at what we're good at and what we're not good at. I'm a great starter, but I'm not a good finisher. There's this other saying I throw it out there for the smartest person in the room Jason, you're in the wrong room and there's this sense that we're meant to surround ourselves with people that are smarter than us. But we've got to be confident with that. We've got to know who we are and we've got to realize that actually, if I know I'm not a finisher but I'm a good starter, then I need to surround myself with people that are good at finishing. If I know I'm good at big picture but not a detail, I need to surround myself with people that are good at detail, and celebrate those people that are good at what you're not good at, because ultimately, you're leading out of permission. You need to be securing who you are, because they're going to be better than you in a lot of things, but you need to know what you're good at and, for me, once you develop your own leadership, understanding, that self-awareness, that confidence in what you are good at, you're then not threatened by people around you that are better than you at other things. If anything, you can celebrate them. You want them on your team. Because I can tell you something right now If everybody was like me as a leader on my team, it'd be a nightmare, it'd be a train wreck, because we'd all start lots of things.
Speaker 3:We'll be kind of social entrepreneurs great ideas, but where's the strategy, where's the detail, where's the follow through? So what I do is I like building a team, because one thing I've realized in life when I felt personally this was for me a real sense and a call to do certain things in my life, that at points, became quite overwhelming. One of the challenges to me was it's not going to be done by you, it's going to be done through you, which means, ultimately, you don't have to do everything. So if you're not going to do everything, who's on your team?
Speaker 3:Because any person that has succeeded in any profession, if they're genuinely hand on heart whether it's boxing, whether it's another sport like football, whether it's music, an artist, a band or an individual artist they've got people around them that have helped them to get to where they are. And so it is, I think, with leadership. You've got people around you. So you've got to know your team, your strength, but also how you develop people, appreciate people, love people, encourage people, champion people. And if it's from an authentic place, you know who you are, you know how to build team, yeah, you get the right results.
Speaker 2:You mentioned a phrase there or a couple of words they're social entrepreneur, which the word I would use probably to describe you. So could you tell us more about your ventures and the impact spark to life and yourself has made on society?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. So for the listeners, spark to life is. I'm the founder and CEO of spark to life. It stands for sharing positive and relevant keys to life. It is a charity specifically sits within the criminal justice sector and space is probably one of few black led I myself plus the exact team, the trustee board, predominantly of black African Caribbean heritage leaders that is turning over more than 1.5 million a year and that's significant when we look at issues of social justice, racial justice, because often within the criminal justice sector specifically, there's disproportionality, whether it be in stuff and search, prison incarceration, even when we look at schools, schools, exclusions, and we can even start looking into mental health etc.
Speaker 3:So we need, I believe, people that look like us in those spaces, speaking into it, truth to power and looking to constructively disrupt certain systems and narratives in a constructive way to bring about change and fairness. So when I think about being a social entrepreneur, you know when we think of an entrepreneur, if someone's got an entrepreneurial gift, often they're going to start things, good at coming up with innovative ideas. More often than not, when we align entrepreneurialism, we think about kind of businesses, money, startups, etc. And hear me correctly, you know, a charity needs money to function. So if you're out there and you're listening to this, a charity doesn't mean that we've got no money. It's why we use the money, and hence the word social entrepreneur. It's talking about social change, it's looking at society, it's looking at issues that I believe that affect people, that affect lifestyles, that affect what people get choices to get access to and opportunities. And you know, for me, specifically being a social entrepreneur, the sector that I'm in is criminal justice. So everything that I think about from an entrepreneurial point of view is around social change. So, whether it's a business model which is some of the things that I'm talking through, thinking about at the moment to diversify funding streams, whether it's adding another project to spark to life, it's about how will it impact people positively, socially to bring about change. But there have to be this entrepreneurial kind of element to it. It's got to be able to at least wash its own face. It's got to be for the public benefit, it's got to be, you know, underpinned by principles, and for me it's underpinned by Christian principles, because it's about the value that I stand for believing as the founder and CEO. So all of that, yeah, plays into the whole thought and concept about the social entrepreneur and bring about change.
Speaker 3:And you know we do preventative, which is working in school, which is to ideally stop young people from being excluded from mainstream education so they don't become part of that. Again, one of the narratives is school to prison pipeline, because we know that a lot of young people in the youth offending institutions sadly have been excluded from mainstream education. So it's really important that we keep young people, especially young people that look like us, in education and we need to advocate for that, because sometimes the decision makers that are determining whether a person stays in education or not don't look like them that are making those decisions. So when we think of whether it's school boards, et cetera, you know, without being too disingenuous, I remember one time speaking to a local authority, and I won't name it, and they was thinking about setting up a more therapeutic exclusion center and they wanted to speak to me about how we can make it more culturally sensitive and culturally competent for, again, black African, caribbean boys specifically, that would be kind of disproportionately excluded from school. So my challenge to them was well, I appreciate the conversation, but what I want to know is what color of the people that's making the decisions about the exclusion and what are the grounds?
Speaker 3:Because, more often than not, when we think about issues of social justice or we think about issues of change, we've got to look at systems. And that's where the issue around. You know the concept of something being systemic. Is the issue systemic? Is it a system issue that set the root of it? It needs to change. Because you know as much as we're about positively helping young people and, in quotes, trying to change young people, sometimes it's the people that are making the decisions that need to be changed. And so, just coming back to the main point, that whole, you know, being a social entrepreneur, these are some of the issues that will come up, and so for me it's about well, where is your innovative ideas around working in those areas of, and for our own sake, it's called exclusion.
Speaker 3:So we another big one stop and search. You know massive thing, that's especially for London and the disproportionate numbers around stop and search we can talk about. You know recent incidents child Q, child X that have been in the media, young children, one of which was sadly strip searched while she was on her menstrual cycle. Another young person was stopped when they had a water pistol, thought it was a firearm.
Speaker 3:And so the question is, okay, holding these systems to account when it comes to whether it's racial profiling, whether it's adulteration, again there's these social issues. So the entrepreneurial side of me will say, okay, what can we set up, what can we do that could begin to address these social issues? And that means we need to find ourselves in spaces where we're having courageous conversations, speaking truth to power and holding systems to account and being a critical friend to these systems to say, actually, we're not happy because and what are you putting in place to make it more equitable and more fair for, you know, the Black African Caribbean heritage, people, for argument's sake, depending on the area that we're looking to address. So that's where, for me, the whole concept of spark to life, being a social entrepreneur kind of comes in.
Speaker 2:Now, kind of you know, in the hustle and bustle of life, self-care often takes a back seat. How do you prioritize your own emotional and mental or being in your daily routine or as a practice, and what advice do you have for others attempting to do the same?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think for me I kind of fell into it, really by a mistake. I'm a high capacity individual. I am energized by, you know, projects, people, and with every strength there's always a weakness, and the weakness can sometimes be whether it's managing time, managing self. You know, I was heavily involved in ministry in a church context for 13 years. It's a very demanding role for anyone that's been in those care fields, specifically from a ministry point of view, because you're not only given practically, you're given spiritually and so you can find yourself giving to others because that's your responsibility. That says your responsibility, that's your job to some degree, but you also see it as a vocation. So it's not just the job, it's a vocation and if you're not careful you can either get what one would call burnout or compassion fatigue, and often I think it comes when there's crisis. So for me it was the ill health of my parents and a member of my family, as in one of my children, and you kind of begin to hit crossroads where you can't keep spinning all these plates, but because there's a demand on you and you feel that if it's unless one drops, you'll keep doing it as much as you can, and when one drops in it and it begins to break, you begin to realize this isn't sustainable and you have to ask yourself questions and, depending on who's around you you know, just kind of segueing quickly to what supports in place. Hence teams really important, and as much as you know. I don't wanna be unfair or disingenuous at the places of work that I was in, but I think sometimes as professionals, we need to be able to see when people are struggling or we need to be able to know what kind of person they are to be able to build a bit of protection around them. And I say that now as a trained therapist, because that's what kind of led me into getting involved in therapy become mental ill health, physical health, hit my family and one of the things in my mindset in my world is oh, I can fix this.
Speaker 3:And when I realized I couldn't fix it, it challenged me and I was very good at again, not in a conscious way but in an unconscious way hiding behind my spirituality in as much as faith was very central to my language, it was very central to my worldview and it still is, but I felt it was slightly unbalanced in as much as I knew how to live in my spirituality but not in my humanity. And so spirituality, disciplines, and for me, speaking from a Christian perspective, I pray, I'd fast, I'd read the Bible, I'd spend time at church, and these were disciplines that would look after my spiritual being. But, naturally speaking, obviously we live in a society that's very hot on you know whether we do or not is another thing using the gym, eating healthily, resting, etc. But also being able to you laugh at this because you've probably been thinking, yeah, there's many a time, like me, you've probably had a gym membership, you've not used that gym kind of thing. I'll throw my money to the wind you got me, but we want to do it. The intention's there, the intention's there. But the point that I make is that's our humanity, that's our physical and emotional, mental well-being.
Speaker 3:And I think when I hit burnout and compassion, fatigue is where I realized you can be physically tired, you can rest and sleep and you can recover probably, if not in a day and a few days, when you're emotionally tired and emotionally spent, it can take you months, sometimes three to six months, to emotionally recover. If I don't understand it and again call it ignorance or arrogance, that's fine. I find it hard to process or accept, and so when I studied therapy, it made me appreciate therapy more, because for me and I'm just being honest therapy was always seen as somebody who can't manage. They need to go to a therapist. And I'm talking, you know, maybe where are we now?
Speaker 3:Six, seven years ago, until I realized I couldn't manage and as strong as I thought I was, whether it be mentally or physically, emotionally there was a lot of yeah, there was a lot of stuff that I needed to work through. So I was engaged with my thinking but not in my feelings, and a lot of that had been suppressed, probably through certain lifestyle choices I've made when I was younger around criminal activity, going through the criminal justice system, this kind of and again, I'm not in any way saying this is good, bad or different, but that kind of alpha male again throwing the term out there that the audience think of it what they will that toxic masculinity approach to life, some in intrajects there, that kind of just an intrajects of things that we have held on to but don't really know why we have those views and we carry out those things, and not questioning why we do what we do and what therapy does. It unpacks all of that and ravells all of that, it challenges all of that and I think it brought me to a realization and a space that actually I need to talk about things and I need to engage in how I feel about things, but be honest. And when you start being honest, so I've got my spirituality, that I would have said was quite helpful. I've got my humanity, you know, and I don't necessarily ascribe to humanism, but what humanism promotes is self actualization and self actualization is being the best you or me from a humanistic point of view, but there is some truth to that. I want people to do the best day that they are. But I think that you know again my own personal view, that we can only know that once we know why we are here, the purpose of why we're here and who's caused us to be here, and my world view is very much that you know God has created us. That's why we're here. So that shapes that. It won't be for all the listeners, but the point that I'm trying to make is is that you know we can look to work on self and develop self in our humanity.
Speaker 3:And that's the area that I was kind of lacking in and going through therapy. Being in therapy because that's what you've got to do, grappling with some real hard issues about choices I've made, thinking patterns, emotions just really began to help me look after myself. So now, as a qualified therapist not a practicing therapist, although I use it more for group supervision, clinical supervision in the work and in the practice, spark to life as a charity that I lead, it means that I'm a lot more mindful. I listen to my body, I listen to how I feel, I'm a lot more honest with myself, with close friends, family, and I know when to what I would call apply self care and self love, which means that it made me put in boundaries. I mean saying no to things and not feeling guilty, because I think certain roles and personalities can lead or lean to that.
Speaker 3:And when you're in ministry, as a part albeit it's a vocation, it's a job you can feel that you are called upon left, right and center and you are somewhat obliged to respond to everybody's need. And unless you're looking after yourself or unless you have the capacity emotionally, mentally, sometimes you're doing it more out of as I would call gift than out of grace. You know you're kind of given out of an empty tank and that's when you can get compassionate and see. So for me it's listening to our bodies, listening to that. For me it's underpinned spiritually, you know. So prayer, again, is a central point and part of my emotional, mental or being. I can't remind myself. I need to slow down, and that means literally slow down physically. So it made me let me just change the pace in which I'm warm, which can seem a little bit overly simplistic, but sometimes you know, especially living in the West and living in London, if you're not careful you just caught up in the rat race. You know, looking at my diary, what's in my diary, what needs to be my diary, and so it's not one thing, it's many things, but it is about self-care and self-love.
Speaker 3:If I was to say one thing for the listeners to really tap in on when we're talking about, how do we look after emotional, mental well-being, it's listening to our bodies. And if we're not used to that because I can appreciate, for some people that can be a little bit abstract what do you mean by listening to my body? Well, how do I feel about things doesn't mean that we're feeling led, because that has to be harnessed with principles. It has to be harnessed with theories and truths that are healthy. So we're not just going by our feelings. But for somebody like me who was more about how I thought and thinking, I had to listen to my body. If you're listening and you're listening to this podcast Maybe you're somebody who's so engaged with your feelings that you feel at times that's not healthy.
Speaker 3:Then I think it's more about Developing thinking patterns that are healthy and looking at what framework do you have to rationalize how you're feeling so that you don't end up going on a you know, on a feeling or going down a rabbit hole that isn't being checked and being rationalized through sounding boards, people that are around you that actually are a bit more objective and can help you in a supportive, constructive way just process, maybe, how you feel. It doesn't have to be a A therapeutic session, it can just be a trusted friend or family member that you can just sound them out with about how you're feeling. But vice versa, for somebody who thinks more and needs to articulate what they're going through, to engage in well, why do I feel like that? And just out, work that and process that. So I think they're kind of little tidbits for people that you know. Again, there are whole subjects in themselves each question you're asking me, jason, but hopefully that would just help people you know just understand how maybe I've journeyed concerning my emotional and Mental well-being and making a distinction between again, trained as a therapist means that I read a lot more around Emotional mental well-being, having people within my family wider family that have Struggled with not mental health but mental ill health, which is slightly different.
Speaker 3:So that's a cute side of mental health and seeing how the system works and understanding three key things. For me, when you look at somebody's emotional mental well-being, that is really crucial is their sleeping pattern, that they're eating and also their social interaction, and If those three things are out of sync it becomes very. It can lead to a level of not only kind of mental health but mental ill health, because we will have mental health every listener that's on this podcast as mental health. Basically, when does it move from it just be mental health to mental ill health? And I think if I sleep in out of joint on a regular basis, our eating's not in a good space and our social contact isn't healthy. Those are the three key areas that can really impact impact somebody's mental health in a negative way.
Speaker 2:No, thank you. Does, yeah, really reflective? Even my own self now, some of the things that you actually said have made me really think so. Really good, thank you for the comprehensive answers to these questions. Just before we wrap up, I just want you to reflect, maybe, on a highlight or a moment in your past Whether it's been in spark to life or when you're working in ministry that has really made you, made you the man you are today. Has there been a moment or a period of time that you thought, yeah, this is something that's made Des Brown who he is today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say do you know what I would say is my time in prison? And I say that because In prison and the two, two times so I was in. Without going to the detail of it and I'll do a little plug you can edit this if you want a sir, I've got a book called convicted or condemned and he does talk about my true life story of how I came into, you know, the criminal justice system and the choices that led me into it and how I navigated through that space and came out the other end up until like 2005, which is a year before spark to life started actually. So it takes one up to that juncture. But for me I was in prison as somebody who I would have said was my own God. I knew what was right and wrong, I decided so, was caught up at times in in different levels of criminal activity, etc. And so my worldview is quite what it done was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, unfortunately folks on my laptop decided to crash on me, but there's was just worth talking about his book, convicted and condemned, and we were just discussing Well, I'm the moments that he would reflect and he mentioned about his time in prison. So there's over to you, my friend.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so just kind of joining the dots, as it were, for the listeners. So what was the most highlight or transformative moment in my world that I look back on and you know there's been a few, but I would say, looking back genuinely, prison was definitely a time because, you know, with all ones privado, with all ones aspirations, goals, etc. And even my faith having to live out, especially the Second time I went into prison, my faith had to play a significant part in how I Navigated. You got me day-to-day life in in prison and whether that's relationships, conversations, etc. But what it done is, it's set within me a real sense of you know, do I really believe in what I say? I believe in? It's been tested. How do I manage Conversations, relation, debates that I would have, whether it's with fellow inmates and or officers, and all of that really sharpened my thinking and my emotional capacity to be able to Manage the hard knocks of life, as they call it.
Speaker 3:So I look at that, as for me, a wilderness experience. You know, you're not where you want to be. There's a lot of things around you that are Challenging you and are causing you to question is this possible? But actually, in the end, that which would seen, or would be seen as a really bad experience or bad time for people. For me personally, it really shaped me, it really helped my yeah, my whole ability to be able to man, just, I think, life as a whole. And so, yeah, look at that as a significant point in my journey phenomenal, phenomenal this route.
Speaker 2:It has been amazing talking to you. Thank you for your time today and it's been great hearing your story on the British Black Tribunal podcast. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you, jason, take care.
Speaker 2:Okay, folks, well, hope you enjoyed that episode from Des Brown of spark to life, the social entrepreneur and CEO of a phenomenal Organization. I know there's personally. He was actually the youth minister of the church I went to, but I was a young person and so many for many, many, many years. Phenomenal speaker, great minister on the great organization, really down to earth, and it's been great.
Speaker 2:Just Reminding myself some of the great things that he's done the world of business in regards to social enterprise Can, as a minister, as a leader, also his work around policing and what he's done in terms of leadership, employing people right in a book, a great family. There's a great testament to what can be done when you really want to achieve something in life. Know what you're good at, as he said in His episode today. So I'm looking forward to seeing you on the next episode of the British Black Tribunal. I remember if you want to come on the show or you know someone that wants to share their entrepreneurial story they're black, from an Afro Caribbean descent from the UK Give me a shout, let me know. See you soon and I can't wait to see your next episode of the British Black Tribunal.